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03-20-2009, 05:41 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre Seems to me that as galling as it is that Chris Dodd and Tim Geithner will get fingers shaken at them but otherwise get a pass. . . .
And as galling as it is that it is now clear that President Obama, or at least his top advisors, knew this was going to happen some time ago. . . .
And as galling as it is that all those executives who ran AIG into the ground will be rewarded with millions and millions of dollars for doing that. . . .
There is a larger issue at stake here that should strike fear into the heart of every American patriot. That issue is that our Congress is presuming to target a specific group for punative taxes, and given the great groundswell of anger out there, probably most taxpayers won't care. But such a move by our government will put all of us at risk. Let a precedent be set for that without challenge and none of us will be safe. A increasingly power drunk leadership from the head down might just exercise additional disciplines as they see fit. And that puts us on a slippery slope that every principle in our Constitution was intended to avoid and could leave us all unprotected and vulnerable.
They can't do this. And we can't allow it.
I asked this on another thread. Anyone else think this whole AIG/bonus/loophole thing is a coincidence? Look what they've just done -- passed a bill to retro tax money. Anyone know exactly how that bill is worded?
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There's going to be potentially some transition process I can envision a decade out or 15 or 20 years out."
Barack Obama 3/24/07 | 
03-20-2009, 06:07 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Article 15
Quote: Originally Posted by manu1959
Quote: Originally Posted by Article 15
What's with all the drama? You guys are cracking me up being all up in arms about this.
It's not like they are doing this to employees of a company that is in the black, following the rules, and not receiving enormous tax payer bailouts. These people are lucky to have jobs!
Same question to you: How exactly is this taxing profits? The company was LOSING money like crazy and needed tax payer money to avoid going under. Where is the "profit" in that? the new ceo hired by the government, the same government that intial approved these same bonus payments said they were retention payments which means it was for the people they wanted to keep to fix this mess......did it ever dawn on you all that these may be the folks that stoped it from completly imploding and from it being worse than it was and were going to fix it......if i were them i would give it back and resign....fix it yourself..... No, it didn't dawn on me. I don't see why it should either.
You see, I work for a private investment firm and if we don't turn a profit, we don't get bonuses.
Crazy concept, I know.  If there are any guilty parties here thay are GONE. You are wanting to punish individuals for what OTHER individuals have done ( possible assisted by more people we want to even know about).
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03-20-2009, 06:16 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by dilloduck
Quote: Originally Posted by Article 15
Quote: Originally Posted by manu1959
the new ceo hired by the government, the same government that intial approved these same bonus payments said they were retention payments which means it was for the people they wanted to keep to fix this mess......did it ever dawn on you all that these may be the folks that stoped it from completly imploding and from it being worse than it was and were going to fix it......if i were them i would give it back and resign....fix it yourself..... No, it didn't dawn on me. I don't see why it should either.
You see, I work for a private investment firm and if we don't turn a profit, we don't get bonuses.
Crazy concept, I know.  If there are any guilty parties here thay are GONE. You are wanting to punish individuals for what OTHER individuals have done ( possible assisted by more people we want to even know about). Guilty or not, my point is that when a company is losing money to the point of collapse, handing out bonuses to anybody doesn't make any sense. And I have a big problem with that when those bonuses are paid out with tax payer dollars. I know my company doesn't operate that way.
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03-20-2009, 06:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Article 15
Quote: Originally Posted by dilloduck
Quote: Originally Posted by Article 15
No, it didn't dawn on me. I don't see why it should either.
You see, I work for a private investment firm and if we don't turn a profit, we don't get bonuses.
Crazy concept, I know.  If there are any guilty parties here thay are GONE. You are wanting to punish individuals for what OTHER individuals have done ( possible assisted by more people we want to even know about). Guilty or not, my point is that when a company is losing money to the point of collapse, handing out bonuses to anybody doesn't make any sense. And I have a big problem with that when those bonuses are paid out with tax payer dollars. I know my company doesn't operate that way. The one thing that doesn't make sense here is a company that is "too big to fail". Since they decided it was, why are they screwing the ones who were hired to keep it afloat ?
__________________ "Some men eventually stumble over the truth but they usually pick themselves up and walk on as if nothing ever happened."
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03-20-2009, 06:23 AM
| | Mr. Forgot-it-All Member #11278 | | Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Maine
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Rep Power: 160 | | | This troubles me.
This inappropriate use of the tax codes to punish individuals, just because we don't like that they have a contract, actually troubles me more than those creeps getting bonuses for screwing up the economy.
A truly sane society would hang these greedy bastards and move on.
Of course, our society's zietgiest has been insane for decades.
Consider that if these clowns had been selling a pound of hemp, we could have taken their homes, their cars, all their money and investments; consider we could have fined them and imprisoned them probably for longer periods than if they'd killed somebody.
Instead, the punishment for the people who have damned near destroyed the entire economy of the Western world, is that their bonuses will be taxed away, but they'll continue working in the same bank which the used to wreck us.
Now, please, somebody try to tell me that this society isn't nuts.
Try and make the case that our laws are fair, or that we live in meritocracy.
Go ahead...I dare yas'. | 
03-20-2009, 06:27 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by editec This troubles me.
This inappropriate use of the tax codes to punish individuals, just because we don't like that they have a contract, actually troubles me more than those creeps getting bonuses for screwing up the economy. I feel the same. This sets a dangerous precedent for future abuses of power by the government.
__________________ "Nonviolence does not mean non-action. Nonviolence means we act with love and compassion. The moment we stop acting, we undermine the principle of nonviolence." – Thich Nhat Hanh
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03-20-2009, 06:30 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by dilloduck
Quote: Originally Posted by Article 15
Quote: Originally Posted by dilloduck
If there are any guilty parties here thay are GONE. You are wanting to punish individuals for what OTHER individuals have done ( possible assisted by more people we want to even know about). Guilty or not, my point is that when a company is losing money to the point of collapse, handing out bonuses to anybody doesn't make any sense. And I have a big problem with that when those bonuses are paid out with tax payer dollars. I know my company doesn't operate that way. The one thing that doesn't make sense here is a company that is "too big to fail". Since they decided it was, why are they screwing the ones who were hired to keep it afloat ? If it's too big to fail, like the claim, then they should be breaking it up into smaller entities.
And I don't see it as screwing anybody.
How about this? ... Fix the company first, get it back an black, and you can receive an orgy of bonus money paid for by the company's profits instead of the taxpayer dollar.
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03-20-2009, 06:32 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Kevin_Kennedy
Quote: Originally Posted by editec This troubles me.
This inappropriate use of the tax codes to punish individuals, just because we don't like that they have a contract, actually troubles me more than those creeps getting bonuses for screwing up the economy. I feel the same. This sets a dangerous precedent for future abuses of power by the government. I agree with you Kevin, but IMO this is what should happen when you come to the gov't for money and make a deal with the devil.
__________________ Ah yeah I'm Superman--a three piece suit and a master plan. Here I come to save the day!
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03-20-2009, 06:33 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by editec This troubles me.
This inappropriate use of the tax codes to punish individuals, just because we don't like that they have a contract, actually troubles me more than those creeps getting bonuses for screwing up the economy.
A truly sane society would hang these greedy bastards and move on.
Of course, our society's zietgiest has been insane for decades.
Consider that if these clowns had been selling a pound of hemp, we could have taken their homes, their cars, all their money and investments; consider we could have fined them and imprisoned them probably for longer periods than if they'd killed somebody.
Instead, the punishment for the people who have damned near destroyed the entire economy of the Western world, is that their bonuses will be taxed away, but they'll continue working in the same bank which the used to wreck us.
Now, please, somebody try to tell me that this society isn't nuts.
Try and make the case that our laws are fair, or that we live in meritocracy.
Go ahead...I dare yas'. Our society is nuts alright. It trusts it's welfare to paid politicians who use their power the reap MORE wealth by passing legislation favoring those that can reward them.
__________________ "Some men eventually stumble over the truth but they usually pick themselves up and walk on as if nothing ever happened."
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"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue, but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing." -Mark Twain | 
03-20-2009, 07:21 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Kevin_Kennedy
Quote: Originally Posted by editec This troubles me.
This inappropriate use of the tax codes to punish individuals, just because we don't like that they have a contract, actually troubles me more than those creeps getting bonuses for screwing up the economy. I feel the same. This sets a dangerous precedent for future abuses of power by the government.
I don't trust government which is why I wonder was this whole thing a mere 'coincidence'.
__________________  Talk is cheap, it's what you do that counts. "My commitment is make sure that we've got universal health care for all Americans by the end of my first term as president.
But I don't think we're going to be able to elminate employer coverage immediately.
There's going to be potentially some transition process I can envision a decade out or 15 or 20 years out."
Barack Obama 3/24/07 | 
03-20-2009, 07:31 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Annie
Quote: Originally Posted by Midnight Marauder
Quote: Originally Posted by manu1959
that isn't correct giethner created a loan program of 40 bil prior to tarp i under bush then tarp i was passed under bush and they got 165 bill..... Geithner was president of the Federal Reserve bank of NY at that time. None of THIS bonus money was handed out under those plans. THIS one is the Dem's baby all the way. They themselves even admit that. None of them is blaming Bush. I'll at least give them credit for that. This is theirs. They own it. And as Diuretic, I believe said, Congress, Treasury, and the administration are close to inciting riots. They have not been blindsided, they are well aware of what happened, what is happening, and what they are doing and have done: washingtonpost.com Quote: Inside AIG-FP, Feeling the Public's Wrath
By Brady Dennis
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 19, 2009; C01
WILTON, Conn., March 18 -- A solitary flat-screen television hangs on the back wall of the trading floor inside the headquarters of AIG Financial Products here. Wednesday afternoon, the most-talked-about employees in America huddled around it to find out just how despised they have become.
They watched quietly as members of Congress referred to them as greedy and incompetent. They heard more than one demand that their names be released to the seething American public. They heard the chairman of American International Group, Edward M. Liddy, tell lawmakers that people, in e-mails sent to AIG-FP, suggested that the firm's leaders "should be executed with piano wire around their necks."
The evening before, the firm's chief operating officer, Gerry Pasciucco -- whom Liddy recruited in November from Morgan Stanley to shut down Financial Products before it could do more harm to the economy -- had gathered them together in the same spot.
Pasciucco urged them to keep their heads down, to act professionally and to continue working to extricate Financial Products from its more than $1.6 trillion in outstanding derivative contracts. He acknowledged that the past few days have been like being "inside the piñata."
In reply, they told him that they worried mostly about getting shot, despite the guards now patrolling the parking lot, the front door and some of their homes.
A sense of fear hung in the room -- the palpable, unsettling kind that flashes across people's eyes. But there was anger, too. No one would express it publicly, of course. Who wants to hear a wealthy financier complain? And yet, within those walls off Danbury Road lies a deep sense of betrayal -- first by their former colleagues, now by their elected leaders. The handful of souls who championed the firm's now-infamous credit-default swaps are, by nearly every account, long since departed. Those left behind to clean up the mess, the majority of whom never lost a dime for AIG, now feel they have been sold out by their Congress and their president.
"They've chosen to throw us under the bus," said a Financial Products executive, one of several who spoke on condition of anonymity, fearing reprisals. "They have vilified us."
They say what is missing from this week's hysteria is perspective. The very handsome retention payments they received over the past week were set in motion early last year when the firm's former president, Joe Cassano, was on his way out the door. Financial Products was already running into trouble on its risky credit bets, and the year ahead looked grim. People were weighing offers from other firms, and AIG executives feared that too many departures could lead to disaster....
....The Financial Products staff met twice Wednesday inside one of the firm's large, glass-walled conference rooms to discuss the boss's letter. Numerous employees indicated that they would be willing to return the money, but most wanted nothing more to do with the firm. It was a preview of the possible exodus to come, one that concerns Liddy himself.
"My fear is that the damage is done," he told a congressional subcommittee. "That they will return [the money], but that they will return it with their resignations."
There is little doubt within Financial Products that he's right about that. "Nobody is going to give it back and then stay," said one of the firm's employees. "If they give back the money, then they will walk. And they will walk into the arms of AIG's counterparties."
In the meantime, the e-mails from the public have continued to roll in, including death threats and calls to blow up the firm's Wilton headquarters. Reporters and photographers have camped out in front of the offices in London and Connecticut. They have staked out employees' houses. The New York Post identified one executive and labeled him "Jackpot Jimmy." Another employee had to relocate his family after a London tabloid printed his address. A protest group is organizing an "AIG magical mystery tour" Saturday, loading up a 47-seat bus to stop at Financial Products and at the homes of some of its executives. Damn it Annie! How DARE you provide FACTS and REALITY to a perfectly good LYNCH MOB MENTALITY. Are you trying to ruin everyones outrage at the WRONG people or something? I mean just think, even though they are all full of shit and being lead around by the nose ring by the current Admin, LOOK, right and left are together on this. Is not that MORE important then reality and facts? Justice? WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT THAT?
Once again this has nicely dropped the entire story of the BILLIONS paid out over seas and converted a bunch of innocent executives in to convenient targets of a frenzied mob whipped into a killing frenzy by our own elected officials. You know, the ones that created the bill that allowed BILLIONS of tax payer money to be sent over seas.
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03-20-2009, 08:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Article 15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kevin_Kennedy
Quote: Originally Posted by editec This troubles me.
This inappropriate use of the tax codes to punish individuals, just because we don't like that they have a contract, actually troubles me more than those creeps getting bonuses for screwing up the economy. I feel the same. This sets a dangerous precedent for future abuses of power by the government. I agree with you Kevin, but IMO this is what should happen when you come to the gov't for money and make a deal with the devil. But let's point our fingers at the right group of people, and that's the government. It's the government that stole our money in the first place, and this wouldn't even be an issue had they not done so. So to fix the problem that they caused they decide to go against the Constitution in many different ways? I believe, as editec said, that that is far worse than the bonuses.
__________________ "Nonviolence does not mean non-action. Nonviolence means we act with love and compassion. The moment we stop acting, we undermine the principle of nonviolence." – Thich Nhat Hanh
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." – Voltaire | 
03-20-2009, 09:17 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by RetiredGySgt
Once again this has nicely dropped the entire story of the BILLIONS paid out over seas and converted a bunch of innocent executives in to convenient targets of a frenzied mob whipped into a killing frenzy by our own elected officials. You know, the ones that created the bill that allowed BILLIONS of tax payer money to be sent over seas. That is an asute observation.
Who is being saved here?
the BOND HOLDERS.
Precisely the people who take financial risks and get paid handsomely to do so.
Well?
How come they aren't subject to the same laws of risk in capitalism as the rest of us obviously are?
Because, fellow citizens, and foreign readers, we do NOT live in a capitalist society.
We never have lived in a capitalist society.
We live in a CLASSIST shamocracy maquarading as a capitalist society which is essantially a cabal of very wealthy people who OWN our government and about 90% of this nations wealth. | 
03-20-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom-boing I asked this on another thread. Anyone else think this whole AIG/bonus/loophole thing is a coincidence? Look what they've just done -- passed a bill to retro tax money. Anyone know exactly how that bill is worded? Perhaps this is the start of a maximum wage. With the publicity and hatred that has been preached against the wealthy in this country this could be the start of Congress determining how much you can make. The Constitution does not give them the authority.
Congress does not have the authority to place a maximum wage in place but then they did not have the authority to place a minimum wage in place. The maximum wage could end up in court which with a congress loss could eliminate the minimum wage also.
Last edited by bornright; 03-20-2009 at 11:03 AM.
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03-20-2009, 11:04 AM
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__________________ "We are fighting today for our life, for our liberty, for our all, we cannot go on being led as we are. Somehow or other, we must get into the Government men who can match our enemies in fighting spirit, in daring, in resolution and in thirst for victory."~Leo Amery 1940, while staring at Chamberlain |  | |
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