Obama shifts, says he may back offshore drilling

**Gunny** · #31 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by jillian

Nothing too extremist there, eh?

Now... if you weren't telling people to stfu, perhaps I'd say that I don't think there should be any consideration of offshore drilling and I disagree. I certainly think Obama beats McCain either way.

On the other hand, in the world of flip flops, I suppose it depends on what gores your ox,,,,

you couldn't care less about this, so it really shouldn't bother you at all. And that's true for most people.

On the other hand, flip flopping on torture... flip flopping on Bush's tax cuts.... flip flopping on the rabid religious right's agenda....

hmmmmmmm.... which candidate is more offensive?

McCain ultimately can't compete in any area of substance, so you guys are getting desperate.....

Why else do you think Karl Rove is now an "unofficial advisor" (Mac didn't even have the cojones to say that the guy who push polled him out of the 2000 race is handling the dirty stuff this time around).

Nothing extremist at all on my part. I see you however went into deflection overdrive because you really have no argument though. As usual.

This isn't about Bush, McCain, nor Rove. It's about Obama.

We're talking about a guy who said if everyone inflated their tires it would make up the difference in oil. GMAFB.

You were doing a LOT better when you were staying away from getting slapped down by me. Better go back to what works for ya.

**Gunny** · #32 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Kirk

Republicans always say alternative energy is "unrealistic." Meanwhile countries with better leadership than our move forward and prove that to be completely untrue.

Energy is all around us. Getting screwed by Big Oil, that's your energy plan.

Here is the truth about Obama's energy plan.

Blink!

Bullshit. And who cares anyway? You are addressing me, correct? Did *I* say alternative energy is unrealistic?

Hint: This is where you shake your head and say: "Why no, Gunny, you didn't. As a matter of fact, I believe you said we need both the oil AND and alternative energy source."

Duh.

Chris · #33 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Gunny

Bullshit. And who cares anyway? You are addressing me, correct? Did *I* say alternative energy is unrealistic?

Hint: This is where you shake your head and say: "Why no, Gunny, you didn't. As a matter of fact, I believe you said we need both the oil AND and alternative energy source."

Duh.

You said Obama plan was unrealistic. What were you referring to?

**Gunny** · #34 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Kirk

I like John McCain, but he won't make it through one term. I don't want Mitt Romney to be president.

Got a crystal ball, do ya?

Chris · #35 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Gunny

Nothing extremist at all on my part. I see you however went into deflection overdrive because you really have no argument though. As usual.

This isn't about Bush, McCain, nor Rove. It's about Obama.

We're talking about a guy who said if everyone inflated their tires it would make up the difference in oil. GMAFB.

You were doing a LOT better when you were staying away from getting slapped down by me. Better go back to what works for ya.

Conservation will make a difference. It already has. Americans drove 10 billion miles less last month, and the oil companies are freaking out.

Everyone made fun of Carter for talking about energy conservation. He was right. Why should we send all of our money overseas?

**Gunny** · #36 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 10:17 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Kirk

You said Obama plan was unrealistic. What were you referring to?

I'm referring to his leftwing mentality of not drilling for oil will force us to find an alternative energy source. Newsfalsh: it hasn't worked yet. We just spend more and more money buying foreign oil.

Obviously reality isn't playing along with the worn-out plan. It's naive to think it's suddenyl going to change. We'll just become more and more dependent on foreign oil as we have been for the past 30+ years while you leftwingers obstruct any real progress.

editec · #37 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Gunny

I doubt he's recognized he's got to pay off anyone for anything but votes. His economic and energy plans are novice and unrealistic at best.

I don't know.

These plans seem fairly reasonable to me

Quote:

Barack Obama’s Plan

Quote:

Reduce the Burden of Rising Gas Prices on Working Families

Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Barack Obama has called on the President to enact a second round of economic stimulus to immediately put tax rebates in the pockets of American families to pay for rising energy prices. As president, Obama will enact a tax fairness agenda that provides 150 million workers a “Making Work Pay” tax credit of $500 per person or $1,000 per working family.

Crack Down on Excessive Energy Speculation

Fully Close the “Enron Loophole”. One of the reasons our energy market is particularly vulnerable to excessive speculation is the so-called “Enron Loophole” which prevents the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) from fully overseeing the oil futures market. As president, Barack Obama will fully close the Enron loophole by requiring that U.S. energy futures trade on regulated exchange to crack down on any excessive speculation in the energy market.
Ensure That U.S. Energy Futures Cannot be Traded on Unregulated Offshore Exchanges. Barack Obama will limit the price impacts of excessive speculation by preventing traders of U.S. crude oil from routing their transactions through off-shore markets in order to evade speculation limits and also impose reporting requirements.
Work with Other Countries to Coordinate Regulation of Oil Futures Markets. Barack Obama believes we must work with our other countries to establish uniform approaches to avoiding excessive speculation in commodities futures markets. This effort will help ensure that as the U.S. strengthens oversight and transparency in U.S. exchanges, these efforts are not undermined by overseas trading subject to lax regulations.
Call on the Federal Trade Commission and Department of Justice to Vigorously Investigate Market Manipulation in Oil Futures. Barack Obama does not believe we cannot afford to wait weeks and months more to vigorously investigate whether energy traders and oil companies manipulating the market at the expense of consumers. He is calling on the FTC to immediately expedite its investigation into market manipulation, including in the oil futures markets.

Enact a Windfall Profits Tax on the Top Grossing Oil Companies and Ease the Burden on American Families: The oil industry has profited greatly—over $150 billion in 2007—due to global instability fueled by conflict in Iraq, failing domestic fiscal policies that have weakened the U.S. dollar and skyrocketing global demand resulting from a lack of investment in alternatives. Barack Obama supports imposing a windfall profits penalty on oil selling at or over $80 per barrel. Revenue from the proposal will be invested in a number of measures to reduce the burden of rising prices on families.
Require Oil Companies to Use Existing Drilling Leases: The 68 million acres of stockpiled leases have the potential to produce an additional 4.8 million barrels of oil each day. This would nearly double total U.S. oil production. The Obama plan would force oil and gas companies to either produce or pay a fee on unused federal onshore and offshore leases they are stockpiling.
End Oil and Gas Industry Tax Breaks: Obama has called for repealing the oil and gas industry tax breaks that President Bush himself has said himself are unnecessary given today’s strong market incentive for expanding exploration and production.
Cooperate with Oil Importing Nations to Reduce Demand: As new large oil importing nations come on the market, the United States is at the mercy of an ever more volatile oil market. Obama believes we should use existing organizations, like NATO, to make energy security a shared global goal. We should take steps to engage the largest new consumers, China and India, including by inviting them to join the International Energy Agency.
Reduce Carbon Emissions 80 Percent by 2050

Cap and Trade: Obama supports implementation of a market-based cap-and-trade system to reduce carbon emissions by the amount scientists say is necessary: 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050. Obama's cap-and-trade system will require all pollution credits to be auctioned. A 100 percent auction ensures that all polluters pay for every ton of emissions they release, rather than giving these emission rights away to coal and oil companies. Some of the revenue generated by auctioning allowances will be used to support the development of clean energy, to invest in energy efficiency improvements, and to address transition costs, including helping American workers affected by this economic transition.
Confront Deforestation and Promote Carbon Sequestration: Obama will develop domestic incentives that reward forest owners, farmers, and ranchers when they plant trees, restore grasslands, or undertake farming practices that capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

Invest in a Clean Energy Future

Invest $150 Billion over 10 Years in Clean Energy: Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial-scale renewable energy, invest in low-emissions coal plants, and begin the transition to a new digital electricity grid. A principal focus of this fund will be devoted to ensuring that technologies that are developed in the U.S. are rapidly commercialized in the U.S. and deployed around the globe.
Double Energy Research and Development Funding: Obama will double science and research funding for clean energy projects including those that make use of our biomass, solar and wind resources.
Invest in a Skilled Clean Technologies Workforce: Obama will use proceeds from the cap-and-trade auction program to invest in job training and transition programs to help workers and industries adapt to clean technology development and production. Obama will also create an energy-focused Green Jobs Corps to connect disconnected and disadvantaged youth with job skills for a high-growth industry.
Convert our Manufacturing Centers into Clean Technology Leaders: Obama will establish a federal investment program to help manufacturing centers modernize and Americans learn the new skills they need to produce green products.
Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund: Obama will create a Clean Technologies Venture Capital Fund to fill a critical gap in U.S. technology development. Obama will invest $10 billion per year into this fund for five years. The fund will partner with existing investment funds and our National Laboratories to ensure that promising technologies move beyond the lab and are commercialized in the U.S
Require 25 Percent of Renewable Electricity by 2025: Obama will establish a 25 percent federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) to require that 25 percent of electricity consumed in the U.S. is derived from clean, sustainable energy sources, like solar, wind and geothermal by 2025.
Develop and Deploy Clean Coal Technology: Obama will significantly increase the resources devoted to the commercialization and deployment of low-carbon coal technologies. Obama will consider whatever policy tools are necessary, including standards that ban new traditional coal facilities, to ensure that we move quickly to commercialize and deploy low carbon coal technology.

Support Next Generation Biofuels

Deploy Cellulosic Ethanol: Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives, cash prizes and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies with the goal of getting the first two billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol into the system by 2013.
Expand Locally-Owned Biofuel Refineries: Less than 10 percent of new ethanol production today is from farmer-owned refineries. New ethanol refineries help jumpstart rural economies. Obama will create a number of incentives for local communities to invest in their biofuels refineries.
Establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard: Barack Obama will establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard to speed the introduction of low-carbon non-petroleum fuels. The standard requires fuels suppliers to reduce the carbon their fuel emits by ten percent by 2020.
Increase Renewable Fuel Standard: Obama will require 36 billion gallons of renewable fuels to be included in the fuel supply by 2022 and will increase that to at least 60 billion gallons of advanced biofuels like cellulosic ethanol by 2030.

Set America on Path to Oil Independence

Obama's plan will reduce oil consumption by at least 35 percent, or 10 million barrels per day, by 2030. This will more than offset the equivalent of the oil we would import from OPEC nations in 2030.

Increase Fuel Economy Standards: Obama will double fuel economy standards within 18 years. His plan will provide retooling tax credits and loan guarantees for domestic auto plants and parts manufacturers, so that they can build new fuel-efficient cars rather than overseas companies. Obama will also invest in advanced vehicle technology such as advanced lightweight materials and new engines.

Improve Energy Efficiency 50 Percent by 2030

Set National Building Efficiency Goals: Barack Obama will establish a goal of making all new buildings carbon neutral, or produce zero emissions, by 2030. He'll also establish a national goal of improving new building efficiency by 50 percent and existing building efficiency by 25 percent over the next decade to help us meet the 2030 goal.
Establish a Grant Program for Early Adopters: Obama will create a competitive grant program to award those states and localities that take the first steps to implement new building codes that prioritize energy efficiency.
Invest in a Digital Smart Grid: Obama will pursue a major investment in our utility grid to enable a tremendous increase in renewable generation and accommodate modern energy requirements, such as reliability, smart metering, and distributed storage

Restore U.S. Leadership on Climate Change

Create New Forum of Largest Greenhouse Gas Emitters: Obama will create a Global Energy Forum — that includes all G-8 members plus Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa –the largest energy consuming nations from both the developed and developing world. The forum would focus exclusively on global energy and environmental issues.
Re-Engage with the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change: The UNFCCC process is the main international forum dedicated to addressing the climate problem and an Obama administration will work constructively within it.

Barack Obama's Record

Renewable Fuels: Obama has worked on numerous efforts in the Senate to increase access to and use of renewable fuels. Obama passed legislation with Senator Jim Talent (R-MO) to give gas stations a tax credit for installing E85 ethanol refueling pumps. The tax credit covers 30 percent of the costs of switching one or more traditional petroleum pumps to E85, which is an 85 percent ethanol/15 percent gasoline blend. Obama also sponsored an amendment that became law providing $40 million for commercialization of a combined flexible fuel vehicle/hybrid car within five years.
CAFE: Obama introduced a bold new plan that brought Republicans and Democrats, CAFE supporters and long-time opponents together in support of legislation that will gradually increase fuel economy standards and offer what the New York Times editorial page called "real as opposed to hypothetical results."

Chris · #38 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Gunny

I'm referring to his leftwing mentality of not drilling for oil will force us to find an alternative energy source. Newsfalsh: it hasn't worked yet. We just spend more and more money buying foreign oil.

Obviously reality isn't playing along with the worn-out plan. It's naive to think it's suddenyl going to change. We'll just become more and more dependent on foreign oil as we have been for the past 30+ years while you leftwingers obstruct any real progress.

The oil companies are the ones not drilling for oil. Why should they? They can just sit back and rake in the profits.

Require Oil Companies to Use Existing Drilling Leases: The 68 million acres of stockpiled leases have the potential to produce an additional 4.8 million barrels of oil each day. This would nearly double total U.S. oil production. The Obama plan would force oil and gas companies to either produce or pay a fee on unused federal onshore and offshore leases they are stockpiling.

jreeves · #39 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by editec

I don't know.

These plans seem fairly reasonable to me

Enact a Windfall Profits Tax on the Top Grossing Oil Companies and Ease the Burden on American Families: The oil industry has profited greatly—over $150 billion in 2007—due to global instability fueled by conflict in Iraq, failing domestic fiscal policies that have weakened the U.S. dollar and skyrocketing global demand resulting from a lack of investment in alternatives. Barack Obama supports imposing a windfall profits penalty on oil selling at or over $80 per barrel. Revenue from the proposal will be invested in a number of measures to reduce the burden of rising prices on families.

“Windfall” Profits Tax on Oil Would Slow Flow: Newsroom: The Independent Institute
In 1980, President Carter signed into law the Crude Oil Windfall Profit Tax Act, which established excise taxes as high as 70 percent on the difference between the market-determined price of oil and a (lower) price set by law. The tax was dropped in 1987, but according to the Congressional Research Service, almost $80 billion was drained from the industry’s income statements while it was in effect.

Money that could have been invested in new oil and gas production and to expand refining capacity was instead diverted to Washington. It should come as no surprise that oil production fell. In fact, 1.6 billion fewer barrels of crude oil were produced in the United States from 1980 to 1987 than would have been produced otherwise. American dependence on foreign oil rose apace.

Crack Down on Excessive Energy Speculation
Fully Close the “Enron Loophole”. One of the reasons our energy market is particularly vulnerable to excessive speculation is the so-called “Enron Loophole” which prevents the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) from fully overseeing the oil futures market. As president, Barack Obama will fully close the Enron loophole by requiring that U.S. energy futures trade on regulated exchange to crack down on any excessive speculation in the energy market.
Ensure That U.S. Energy Futures Cannot be Traded on Unregulated Offshore Exchanges. Barack Obama will limit the price impacts of excessive speculation by preventing traders of U.S. crude oil from routing their transactions through off-shore markets in order to evade speculation limits and also impose reporting requirements.
Work with Other Countries to Coordinate Regulation of Oil Futures Markets. Barack Obama believes we must work with our other countries to establish uniform approaches to avoiding excessive speculation in commodities futures markets. This effort will help ensure that as the U.S. strengthens oversight and transparency in U.S. exchanges, these efforts are not undermined by overseas trading subject to lax regulations.
Call on the Federal Trade Commission and Department of Justice to Vigorously Investigate Market Manipulation in Oil Futures. Barack Obama does not believe we cannot afford to wait weeks and months more to vigorously investigate whether energy traders and oil companies manipulating the market at the expense of consumers. He is calling on the FTC to immediately expedite its investigation into market manipulation, including in the oil futures markets.

Speculators aren't driving up oil prices, report finds - International Herald Tribune
As Congress debates how to curtail the role of speculators and rein in rising oil prices, a U.S. government task force said Tuesday that it had so far found no evidence that those investors are systematically pushing up the cost of energy.

Instead, in an interim report made public on Tuesday, the task force said that its research "does not support the hypothesis that the activity of these groups is driving prices higher."

The preliminary study concluded that the rise in oil prices over the last five years was "largely due" to fundamental factors like rapidly rising consumption and sluggish growth in energy supplies worldwide.

Support Next Generation Biofuels

Deploy Cellulosic Ethanol: Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives, cash prizes and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies with the goal of getting the first two billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol into the system by 2013.
Expand Locally-Owned Biofuel Refineries: Less than 10 percent of new ethanol production today is from farmer-owned refineries. New ethanol refineries help jumpstart rural economies. Obama will create a number of incentives for local communities to invest in their biofuels refineries.
Establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard: Barack Obama will establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard to speed the introduction of low-carbon non-petroleum fuels. The standard requires fuels suppliers to reduce the carbon their fuel emits by ten percent by 2020.
Increase Renewable Fuel Standard: Obama will require 36 billion gallons of renewable fuels to be included in the fuel supply by 2022 and will increase that to at least 60 billion gallons of advanced biofuels like cellulosic ethanol by 2030.
Set America on Path to Oil Independence

ReviewJournal.com - Opinion - We need real energy solutions that address supply and demand
Growing our American energy supply is critical to this equation. We have to infuse American energy into our marketplace -- it will lower fuel prices and remove us from the grip of countries that hate us but to whom we pay $700 billion a year for oil. We are facing a problem of supply and demand where, simply put, we use more than we have. But with trillions of barrels of oil right here in the United States and under our control -- not in Saudi Arabia or Venezuela or some other country where many people hate us -- energy independence can be a reality.

We have at least 10 billion barrels of oil in ANWR, 8.5 billion barrels in deep sea exploration and more than a trillion barrels from oil shale in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming. We also have a 230-year supply of coal and great potential in nuclear energy. These changes would lower prices and would do so quickly because the market will react to expected supply increases. And the American people would react to the fact that we have shown vision and accomplished something for their good.

That's the reason Obama doesn't have a reasonable energy policy...

jreeves · #40 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Kirk

The oil companies are the ones not drilling for oil. Why should they? They can just sit back and rake in the profits.

Require Oil Companies to Use Existing Drilling Leases: The 68 million acres of stockpiled leases have the potential to produce an additional 4.8 million barrels of oil each day. This would nearly double total U.S. oil production. The Obama plan would force oil and gas companies to either produce or pay a fee on unused federal onshore and offshore leases they are stockpiling.

Obama's Dry Hole - WSJ.com
In other words, these whiz kids assume that every acre of every lease holds the same amount of oil and gas. Yet the existence of a lease does not guarantee that the geology holds recoverable resources. Brian Kennedy of the Institute for Energy Research quips that, using the same extrapolation, the 9.4 billion acres of the currently nonproducing moon should yield 654 million barrels of oil per day.

Oil companies acquire leases in the expectation that some of them contain sufficient oil and gas to cover the total costs. Yet it takes years to move through federal permitting, exploration and development. The U.S. Minerals Management Service notes that only one of three wells results in a discovery of oil that can be recovered economically. In deeper water, it's one of five. All this involves huge risks, capital investment – and time.

If anything, the Democrats ought to be dancing in the streets about "idle" leases. It means fewer rigs. The days of hit-or-miss wildcatting have been relegated to the past by new, more efficient technologies, such as seismic imaging, directional drilling (wells that are "steered" underground) and multilateral drilling (multiple underground offshoots from a single wellbore).

At the same time, finding new reservoirs has become far more complex. Except for a few very large fields discovered decades ago like Prudhoe Bay, most recent discoveries have been smaller, deeper and less concentrated. The U.S. needs a continuous supply of discoveries to replace declining wells.

Yet companies are not allowed to explore where the biggest prospects for oil and gas may exist – especially on the Outer Continental Shelf. Seven of the top 20 U.S. oil fields are now located in analogous deepwater areas (greater than 1,000 feet) in the Gulf of Mexico. In 2006, Chevron discovered what is likely to be the largest American oil find since Prudhoe, drilled in 7,000 feet of water and more than 20,000 feet under the sea floor. The Wilcox formation may have an upper end of 15 billion barrels of recoverable oil and should begin producing by 2014 – perhaps ushering in a new ultradeepwater frontier.

Likewise, in April, the U.S. Geological Survey revised its estimate for the Bakken Shale, underneath the badlands of North Dakota and Montana. The new assessment – as much as 4.3 billion barrels of oil – is a 25-fold increase over what the Survey believed in 1995. Such breakthroughs confirm that very large reserves exist, if only Congress would let business get at them.

Sure, they are just sitting on huge oil reserves and not drilling.

Charles_Main · #41 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Gunny

Go figure.

I can't find the post, but about 3 weeks ago I predicted this! TO bad Nancy Sent congress home for a 6 week break with out allowing a vote on this. My guess is she was protecting Obama from having to vote on the issue.

Charles_Main · #42 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 12:49 PM

The leases in question are almost all Use or Lose leases. Meaning either they use them with in 10 years or lose them. The idea that they are sitting on Oil and not drilling is a fabrication of the democrats. If a lease is not being drilled, it is because it was found to either not have any oil, or not enough to make it cost effective!

jreeves · #43 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Charles_Main

I can't find the post, but about 3 weeks ago I predicted this! TO bad Nancy Sent congress home for a 6 week break with out allowing a vote on this. My guess is she was protecting Obama from having to vote on the issue.

Well that and the legislative ban on offshore drilling expires 9/30/08 anyway. So she just plays dumb and keeps a vote from happening while they can still be the champions to the enviromental groups.

Chris · #44 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Charles_Main

The leases in question are almost all Use or Lose leases. Meaning either they use them with in 10 years or lose them. The idea that they are sitting on Oil and not drilling is a fabrication of the democrats. If a lease is not being drilled, it is because it was found to either not have any oil, or not enough to make it cost effective!

Link?

Chris · #45 (**permalink**) 08-02-2008, 01:17 PM

Funny how gas was .99 a gallon when the Democrats were in the White House.