US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

The 2012 Republican Conventiion

This is a discussion on The 2012 Republican Conventiion within the Clean Debate Zone forums, part of the US Discussion category; Quote: Originally Posted by antagon Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle Quote: Originally Posted by antagon I'm giving this vote thought. I rush home to see ...


Go Back   US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum > US Discussion > Clean Debate Zone

Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 01:25 PM
Oldstyle's Avatar
Registered User
Member #31215
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,162
Thanks: 705
Thanked 4,160 Times in 2,586 Posts
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 2171
Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute
Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
I'm giving this vote thought. I rush home to see the RNC for goodness sake.

Two things will happen whether Obama or Romney are in the office: The ratios against GDP (like debt or deficit to GDP), which permit the arguments about a fiscal crisis, will improve along with the economy. The government will raise tax revenue in ratio to GDP.

Whichever of these guys can stay farther from the "would have been worse" or "should have been better" argument, the more intelligent and credible their campaign will be. Having watched the conventions and followed politics since I was a little kid, I know that the conventions are not the place to get the more pragmatic vibes that I'm looking for.

Still, Mitt should have walked through energy and small business in waaay more depth. Do you know how many times you can say 'jobs' and 'women' talking about our economy and these two platform pieces? He needs to ignore the poles about personality and run on being comfortable with business.
Since you have watched politics then you have to know that this convention had two main goals for the GOP...they wanted to get the conversation back on the economy...and they wanted to counter the Democratic "narrative" that Mitt Romney and the Republicans "hate" women and minorities.

The literal stampede of minority and women speakers that went across that stage did wonders for the second goal.

You probably didn't get the full exposure to the GOP message about Romney's business background because much of it was given by people that weren't "big names" and thus the networks had a bad habit of cutting away so that their talking heads could discuss what they had seen so far. The picture those people painted of Mitt Romney was that he is a man who is not only very business savvy but also very compassionate. Time after time in Romney's life he's given of his time and his money to help not only the people who worked with him but the people in his community. I think that the Democratic narrative of Romney being a "heartless corporate raider" is going to be hard to sell after all the evidence to the contrary. Say what you will about Mitt Romney...he has walked the walk, not just talked the talk and done it in a very private way.

As I've said on here before...I think the true test of someone's character is what they do when they think nobody is around. I used to manage a large club right across from Fenway Park. Mo Vaughn, one of the Boston Red Sox stars bought a block of game tickets for kids from poor neighborhoods for each home game and then had them over to our place for pizza and sodas afterwards. It cost him a lot of money but what always impressed me about what he did was that he was adamant about keeping it private. He didn't want the press to know about it. He didn't care if he didn't get public recognition for what he was doing. He did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. Romney is THAT kind of a guy. He did things in his life because he thought they were the right thing to do...not because doing them would make him "look good".
I like Romney's character. I watched on CSPAN which had full coverage, but I get home around 9:15 EST, so I did not catch much of the early stuff. Honestly, I can't watch 4 hrs of TV a day anyhow... definitely not RNC/DNC coverage. I wanted to see Ann Romney, Ryan and some of the shooting stars. I was impressed by those. I was expecting to have a more pumped-up feeling about Mitt, but I'm dont.
Then you missed some very moving testimonials about Mitt Romney. They weren't given by the "shooting stars" they were given by some very ordinary people who related extra-ordinary things that Romney did while he was running things like Bain Capital. People were weeping in the convention audience at some of them...they were that moving.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
USMessageBoard.com is the premier Political Forum Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see these ads. Please Register - It's Free!
  #92 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 04:37 PM
antagon's Avatar
The Man
Member #21840
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,572
Thanks: 559
Thanked 402 Times in 336 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 60
antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha
Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post

Since you have watched politics then you have to know that this convention had two main goals for the GOP...they wanted to get the conversation back on the economy...and they wanted to counter the Democratic "narrative" that Mitt Romney and the Republicans "hate" women and minorities.

The literal stampede of minority and women speakers that went across that stage did wonders for the second goal.

You probably didn't get the full exposure to the GOP message about Romney's business background because much of it was given by people that weren't "big names" and thus the networks had a bad habit of cutting away so that their talking heads could discuss what they had seen so far. The picture those people painted of Mitt Romney was that he is a man who is not only very business savvy but also very compassionate. Time after time in Romney's life he's given of his time and his money to help not only the people who worked with him but the people in his community. I think that the Democratic narrative of Romney being a "heartless corporate raider" is going to be hard to sell after all the evidence to the contrary. Say what you will about Mitt Romney...he has walked the walk, not just talked the talk and done it in a very private way.

As I've said on here before...I think the true test of someone's character is what they do when they think nobody is around. I used to manage a large club right across from Fenway Park. Mo Vaughn, one of the Boston Red Sox stars bought a block of game tickets for kids from poor neighborhoods for each home game and then had them over to our place for pizza and sodas afterwards. It cost him a lot of money but what always impressed me about what he did was that he was adamant about keeping it private. He didn't want the press to know about it. He didn't care if he didn't get public recognition for what he was doing. He did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. Romney is THAT kind of a guy. He did things in his life because he thought they were the right thing to do...not because doing them would make him "look good".
I like Romney's character. I watched on CSPAN which had full coverage, but I get home around 9:15 EST, so I did not catch much of the early stuff. Honestly, I can't watch 4 hrs of TV a day anyhow... definitely not RNC/DNC coverage. I wanted to see Ann Romney, Ryan and some of the shooting stars. I was impressed by those. I was expecting to have a more pumped-up feeling about Mitt, but I'm dont.
Then you missed some very moving testimonials about Mitt Romney. They weren't given by the "shooting stars" they were given by some very ordinary people who related extra-ordinary things that Romney did while he was running things like Bain Capital. People were weeping in the convention audience at some of them...they were that moving.
Nah. I caught some of those. YouTube.

That is not the emotion I will be voting on.
Reply With Quote
  #93 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 04:53 PM
Oldstyle's Avatar
Registered User
Member #31215
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,162
Thanks: 705
Thanked 4,160 Times in 2,586 Posts
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 2171
Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute
Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute Oldstyle has a reputation beyond repute
I didn't vote on emotion last time either. I voted for McCain because he was a moderate Republican who had a history of working across the aisle. It was amusing to watch the main stream media go along with the Democrat's portrayal of McCain as an "extreme conservative" after he'd been pushed as a running mate for John Kerry by Joe Biden no less. You've got to love the irony of that!

I'll vote for Mitt Romney this time because he also is a moderate Republican with a record of working across the aisle to get things done. I think he's perfect for the job at hand.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oldstyle For This Useful Post:
freedombecki (09-01-2012)
  #94 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 05:13 PM
antagon's Avatar
The Man
Member #21840
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,572
Thanks: 559
Thanked 402 Times in 336 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 60
antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha
Quote: Originally Posted by JDzBrain View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
...I will not vote for Mitt because I think America is on the brink of collapse, because I don't think we're close.
Well then, that kinda puts ya in the camp with neocons/RINOs/liberals/progressives, ant. Cause that's what they believe.
Most people from any philosophical background feel that way because this is a mathematical problem with mathematical indicators. Those indicators don't predict a financial collapse.

Quote:
Truth is though, our national debt is OVER 100% of our GDP for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY. It has historically run at 20% or LESS of our GDP. Even during the worst of times. Paul Ryan called for a return to that standard in his speech Wednesday.
This is the math which does not add up: This is not the first time we've crested 100% in our history. Historically, our debt hasn't been 20% of GDP. That 20% statement was the only substantive statement of Ryan's speech, and I heard it loud and clear: annual government spending to equal 20% of GDP... very, very different.

How we understand history and how we hear what is told us will make a difference in what we believe.

Quote:
Our credit rating as a COUNTRY was downgraded by one of the major ratings agencies for the FIRST IN HISTORY last year.

The Federal Reserve has been amortizing our debt. That's for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY and for over a year now. Which is the same thing that happened to England, Germany, Japan...and every major economy in the last 60 years just before it's total collapse. The ONLY reason they recovered...is because WE, the United States bailed them out. Just WHO is going to bail us out...China? Is China who you want to OWN our future?

Republicans and conservatives are optimist, ant. We BELIEVE in American's and their ability to overcome. Our worry is NOT that we won't SURVIVE this fiscal insanity. Our worry is how much PAIN are Americans going to have to endure just to overcome when it CAN be avoided IF we ACT NOW!

Just to put the urgency into perspective, if you spent 1 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY, every day, 365 days a year, it would take you nearly 3,000 YEARS to spend 1 trillion dollars. We are 16 trillion in debt. THAT will only take you 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend at 1 million per day.

Or put another way, every single baby that is born in this country owes with the first breath it draws on this earth, 51,600 dollars. That's a 51 THOUSAND dollar BIRTH TAX! Hell, you, me...EVERYONE owes 51,600 bucks and according to the CBO, if Obama gets another 4 years, that debt will be at LEAST 20 TRILLION dollars and that birth tax will be a nearly 65 thousand dollars.
ok, ok.

What if you understand these matters before a politician brought them to your attention? What happens when you also know it would take 40-some thousand years to spend our annual GDP at a million/year, and that there are all kinds of ways to be hysterical with trillions of dollars? What happens when you know babies aren't born with a lil' share of the debt and that political devices commonly go so far from reality that they just aren't credible?

If I have to look back at my last 4-6 years and feel bad about my life or my country, or blame government in order to support the GOP, I will be a difficult vote to earn.
Reply With Quote
  #95 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 05:44 PM
freedombecki's Avatar
Papilio palinurus
Member #29697
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,937
Thanks: 14,998
Thanked 8,915 Times in 5,841 Posts
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 22734
freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati
freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati freedombecki gives orders to the Illuminati
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JDzBrain View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
...I will not vote for Mitt because I think America is on the brink of collapse, because I don't think we're close.
Well then, that kinda puts ya in the camp with neocons/RINOs/liberals/progressives, ant. Cause that's what they believe.
Most people from any philosophical background feel that way because this is a mathematical problem with mathematical indicators. Those indicators don't predict a financial collapse.

Quote:
Truth is though, our national debt is OVER 100% of our GDP for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY. It has historically run at 20% or LESS of our GDP. Even during the worst of times. Paul Ryan called for a return to that standard in his speech Wednesday.
This is the math which does not add up: This is not the first time we've crested 100% in our history. Historically, our debt hasn't been 20% of GDP. That 20% statement was the only substantive statement of Ryan's speech, and I heard it loud and clear: annual government spending to equal 20% of GDP... very, very different.

How we understand history and how we hear what is told us will make a difference in what we believe.

Quote:
Our credit rating as a COUNTRY was downgraded by one of the major ratings agencies for the FIRST IN HISTORY last year.

The Federal Reserve has been amortizing our debt. That's for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY and for over a year now. Which is the same thing that happened to England, Germany, Japan...and every major economy in the last 60 years just before it's total collapse. The ONLY reason they recovered...is because WE, the United States bailed them out. Just WHO is going to bail us out...China? Is China who you want to OWN our future?

Republicans and conservatives are optimist, ant. We BELIEVE in American's and their ability to overcome. Our worry is NOT that we won't SURVIVE this fiscal insanity. Our worry is how much PAIN are Americans going to have to endure just to overcome when it CAN be avoided IF we ACT NOW!

Just to put the urgency into perspective, if you spent 1 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY, every day, 365 days a year, it would take you nearly 3,000 YEARS to spend 1 trillion dollars. We are 16 trillion in debt. THAT will only take you 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend at 1 million per day.

Or put another way, every single baby that is born in this country owes with the first breath it draws on this earth, 51,600 dollars. That's a 51 THOUSAND dollar BIRTH TAX! Hell, you, me...EVERYONE owes 51,600 bucks and according to the CBO, if Obama gets another 4 years, that debt will be at LEAST 20 TRILLION dollars and that birth tax will be a nearly 65 thousand dollars.
ok, ok.

What if you understand these matters before a politician brought them to your attention? What happens when you also know it would take 40-some thousand years to spend our annual GDP at a million/year, and that there are all kinds of ways to be hysterical with trillions of dollars? What happens when you know babies aren't born with a lil' share of the debt and that political devices commonly go so far from reality that they just aren't credible?

If I have to look back at my last 4-6 years and feel bad about my life or my country, or blame government in order to support the GOP, I will be a difficult vote to earn.
Would a graph help turn your mind if you knew middle class salaries fell $4,019 per year on Obama's watch?



"Negative $4,019"

Quote:
In January 2009, the month President Obama entered the Oval Office and shortly before he signed his stimulus spending bill, median household income was $54,983. By June 2012, it had tumbled to $50,964, adjusted for inflation. (See the chart nearby.) That's $4,019 in lost real income, a little less than a month's income every year.
Inflation at the grocery store has been masked by packaging commodities in smaller containers. Instead of getting a gallon of Welch's grapejuice for $4.98, you now get 3 quarts in a plastic container that seems about the same size, except handles now scrunch a whole quart of juice from the middle of what looks almost like a gallon of Welch's grape juice. Instead of getting 16 servings that would make the gallon last for 4 days with a family of four, you only get 12 servings for 3 days. That increases your number of trips to the store when you assess all these little pilferings from gallons, loaves, packages, and boxes, all of which are roughly containing 25% less product.

Inflation at the pump goes without saying. It's taking triple what it did when Obama stepped into office. He made it happen, but instead of lowering gas usage, it didn't happen. Instead, people are just putting it on credit cards, and they have less money coming in with reduced average wages with which to pay it back.
__________________
Green-banded Swallowtail - Papilio palinurus

Last edited by freedombecki; 09-01-2012 at 05:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #96 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 06:17 PM
Foxfyre's Avatar
Eternal optimist
Member #6847
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Desert Southwest USA
Posts: 36,330
Thanks: 16,012
Thanked 18,115 Times in 10,815 Posts
Mentioned: 162 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 20098
Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati
Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post

I like Romney's character. I watched on CSPAN which had full coverage, but I get home around 9:15 EST, so I did not catch much of the early stuff. Honestly, I can't watch 4 hrs of TV a day anyhow... definitely not RNC/DNC coverage. I wanted to see Ann Romney, Ryan and some of the shooting stars. I was impressed by those. I was expecting to have a more pumped-up feeling about Mitt, but I'm dont.
Then you missed some very moving testimonials about Mitt Romney. They weren't given by the "shooting stars" they were given by some very ordinary people who related extra-ordinary things that Romney did while he was running things like Bain Capital. People were weeping in the convention audience at some of them...they were that moving.
Nah. I caught some of those. YouTube.

That is not the emotion I will be voting on.
The purpose of those testimonials was to show who Mitt Romney is. And who Mitt Romney is is not the heartless, ruthless, conservative evil corporate rich guy as the leftwing media and the Democrats want to portray him. And most of those testimonials were focused on Mitt Romney, the guy who can figure out what the problem is and how best to solve it.
__________________
ENTER THE COFFEE SHOP HERE
Reply With Quote
  #97 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 06:57 PM
antagon's Avatar
The Man
Member #21840
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,572
Thanks: 559
Thanked 402 Times in 336 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 60
antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha
Quote: Originally Posted by freedombecki View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JDzBrain View Post
Well then, that kinda puts ya in the camp with neocons/RINOs/liberals/progressives, ant. Cause that's what they believe.
Most people from any philosophical background feel that way because this is a mathematical problem with mathematical indicators. Those indicators don't predict a financial collapse.

This is the math which does not add up: This is not the first time we've crested 100% in our history. Historically, our debt hasn't been 20% of GDP. That 20% statement was the only substantive statement of Ryan's speech, and I heard it loud and clear: annual government spending to equal 20% of GDP... very, very different.

How we understand history and how we hear what is told us will make a difference in what we believe.

ok, ok.

What if you understand these matters before a politician brought them to your attention? What happens when you also know it would take 40-some thousand years to spend our annual GDP at a million/year, and that there are all kinds of ways to be hysterical with trillions of dollars? What happens when you know babies aren't born with a lil' share of the debt and that political devices commonly go so far from reality that they just aren't credible?

If I have to look back at my last 4-6 years and feel bad about my life or my country, or blame government in order to support the GOP, I will be a difficult vote to earn.
Would a graph help turn your mind if you knew middle class salaries fell $4,019 per year on Obama's watch?



"Negative $4,019"

Quote:
In January 2009, the month President Obama entered the Oval Office and shortly before he signed his stimulus spending bill, median household income was $54,983. By June 2012, it had tumbled to $50,964, adjusted for inflation. (See the chart nearby.) That's $4,019 in lost real income, a little less than a month's income every year.
Inflation at the grocery store has been masked by packaging commodities in smaller containers. Instead of getting a gallon of Welch's grapejuice for $4.98, you now get 3 quarts in a plastic container that seems about the same size, except handles now scrunch a whole quart of juice from the middle of what looks almost like a gallon of Welch's grape juice. Instead of getting 16 servings that would make the gallon last for 4 days with a family of four, you only get 12 servings for 3 days. That increases your number of trips to the store when you assess all these little pilferings from gallons, loaves, packages, and boxes, all of which are roughly containing 25% less product.

Inflation at the pump goes without saying. It's taking triple what it did when Obama stepped into office. He made it happen, but instead of lowering gas usage, it didn't happen. Instead, people are just putting it on credit cards, and they have less money coming in with reduced average wages with which to pay it back.
Does that chart seem irregular to you? Is this the first or only historical median household income graph which you've taken the time to study?

The 'should have been better' argument here. Has there ever been an economic downturn where median household income has been a leading recovery indicator? If one uses these sort of observations as a campaigning point, doesn't that amount to a less credible or intelligent analysis on the economy?

I know that you're pointing this out, not Romney. Romney can't win just by working with the last 4yrs. The GOP is in an important cycle for their political relevance. I think it would demand a lot of their forward rather than backward vision.
Reply With Quote
  #98 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 09:59 PM
antagon's Avatar
The Man
Member #21840
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,572
Thanks: 559
Thanked 402 Times in 336 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 60
antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Oldstyle View Post

Then you missed some very moving testimonials about Mitt Romney. They weren't given by the "shooting stars" they were given by some very ordinary people who related extra-ordinary things that Romney did while he was running things like Bain Capital. People were weeping in the convention audience at some of them...they were that moving.
Nah. I caught some of those. YouTube.

That is not the emotion I will be voting on.
The purpose of those testimonials was to show who Mitt Romney is. And who Mitt Romney is is not the heartless, ruthless, conservative evil corporate rich guy as the leftwing media and the Democrats want to portray him. And most of those testimonials were focused on Mitt Romney, the guy who can figure out what the problem is and how best to solve it.
I don't mean to rock your boat at all with my concerns about that convention. I know there are many political fires to put out and patch up, but no patches covered my bigger concerns.

I know that Mitt is a turn-around artist. He can be president.. but that means he's qualified... eligible. The RR ticket just needs to win my vote, rather than hoping that I will blame all the negatives in my life on Obama and default to the GOP.
Reply With Quote
  #99 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2012, 11:09 PM
Registered User
Member #33830
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Back woods of Kentucky
Posts: 519
Thanks: 483
Thanked 190 Times in 142 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 109
JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JDzBrain View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
...I will not vote for Mitt because I think America is on the brink of collapse, because I don't think we're close.
Well then, that kinda puts ya in the camp with neocons/RINOs/liberals/progressives, ant. Cause that's what they believe.
Most people from any philosophical background feel that way because this is a mathematical problem with mathematical indicators. Those indicators don't predict a financial collapse.

Quote:
Truth is though, our national debt is OVER 100% of our GDP for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY. It has historically run at 20% or LESS of our GDP. Even during the worst of times. Paul Ryan called for a return to that standard in his speech Wednesday.
This is the math which does not add up: This is not the first time we've crested 100% in our history. Historically, our debt hasn't been 20% of GDP. That 20% statement was the only substantive statement of Ryan's speech, and I heard it loud and clear: annual government spending to equal 20% of GDP... very, very different.

How we understand history and how we hear what is told us will make a difference in what we believe.

Quote:
Our credit rating as a COUNTRY was downgraded by one of the major ratings agencies for the FIRST IN HISTORY last year.

The Federal Reserve has been amortizing our debt. That's for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY and for over a year now. Which is the same thing that happened to England, Germany, Japan...and every major economy in the last 60 years just before it's total collapse. The ONLY reason they recovered...is because WE, the United States bailed them out. Just WHO is going to bail us out...China? Is China who you want to OWN our future?

Republicans and conservatives are optimist, ant. We BELIEVE in American's and their ability to overcome. Our worry is NOT that we won't SURVIVE this fiscal insanity. Our worry is how much PAIN are Americans going to have to endure just to overcome when it CAN be avoided IF we ACT NOW!

Just to put the urgency into perspective, if you spent 1 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY, every day, 365 days a year, it would take you nearly 3,000 YEARS to spend 1 trillion dollars. We are 16 trillion in debt. THAT will only take you 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend at 1 million per day.

Or put another way, every single baby that is born in this country owes with the first breath it draws on this earth, 51,600 dollars. That's a 51 THOUSAND dollar BIRTH TAX! Hell, you, me...EVERYONE owes 51,600 bucks and according to the CBO, if Obama gets another 4 years, that debt will be at LEAST 20 TRILLION dollars and that birth tax will be a nearly 65 thousand dollars.
ok, ok.

What if you understand these matters before a politician brought them to your attention? What happens when you also know it would take 40-some thousand years to spend our annual GDP at a million/year, and that there are all kinds of ways to be hysterical with trillions of dollars? What happens when you know babies aren't born with a lil' share of the debt and that political devices commonly go so far from reality that they just aren't credible?

If I have to look back at my last 4-6 years and feel bad about my life or my country, or blame government in order to support the GOP, I will be a difficult vote to earn.
Actually ant, 64% of ALL Americans...NOT just conservatives, believe that debt and deficit spending is the greatest DANGER this country faces. It beats terrorism by country mile in polling. So the statement that "Most people from any philosophical background feel that way..." is based on a fallacy, cause the 38% remainder is not most.

And as to the experts views. DOZENS of top economist in this country are warning that if we don't get our debt and this insane deficit spending under control, we ARE headed toward a Weimar type of collapse. If you don't know history...look it up.

The REASONS for the conditions are different than they were in 1920's Germany, but the conditions them selves are approaching IDENTICAL!

HUGE debt, about 8 billion was about 100% of their GDP, unemployment that rose from 2% 1921 to 23% by the end in '33, production fell and GDP dropped...WHICH led to huge shortfalls in tax revenue and the Weimar Government amortizing it's debt and printing more and more money to cover it. Sound familiar? It should! Ever hear of QE 1 or QE 2. If not...you had BETTER look it up too!

And WE have a REPORTED unemployment rate above 8% for nearly 4 years for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY in this country. And the ACTUAL unemployment rate is closer to 14%. The only reason inflation isn't approaching 12% is because politicians LIE and changed the way it's reported back in the 80's to cover their asses and jobs.

When the debt was called by the the Europeans and Germany couldn't pay up, the result was hyper inflation where the exchange rate in 1920 went form 14 marks per 1 US dollar to 4.2 BILLION per US dollar just 3 years later. It LITERALLY took a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread!

What happens if the Chinese call our debt? What "concessions" will we have to make to avoid bankruptcy? See, the Germans got Hitler and his socialist workers party government out of it. Just WHAT are you willing to risk in an AVOIDABLE future?

As I said, the CAUSES for the conditions the Germans found themselves in were slightly different than ours, but the conditions themselves are FAST approaching the same and there are quite literally dozens of leading economist WARNING JUST THAT!

As to the national debt, you are right. I might more rightly have said, it has reached 103% of our GDP for the first time in our PEACE TIME history and only the SECOND time in modern history. See, it DID go over 100% in the LAST YEAR of WWII and quickly began to fall back down to just about 20% of our GDP after the war ended.

That's UNTIL the big government explosion in the late 70's. And I say in modern history, because until the first progressive president, Woodrow Wilson and his Fabien Socialist associates started showing up in our government, our debt to GDP never exceeded 10%!!!

However, the AVERAGE over our history has been just under 20%. That's just a fact and it no coincidence that when we keep our SPENDING under 20%, our debt stays low as well. THAT is just common sense!

As to my perceptions...uh, I was likely keeping up with this stuff before most of the folks reading this thread were even born. And the HISTORY of our country and our economy was NOT taught to me by sound bites from politicians sprayed out over air waves or the ramblings of blogers on the internet. My perceptions were earned by interest and experience.

And the FACT that it will take 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend 16 trillion dollars, spending 1 million dollars PER DAY...NOT year. You really need to understand the gravity of this to be able to put it into perspective. 1 million a DAY...every day for 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend 16 trillion dollars.

That is the thing progressives don't seem to understand. The magnitude of the difference between a million, a billion and a trillion. Once a number gets so big that it's just expressed as a point, like 22.5 trillion, the amount the CBO ACTUALLY projects our deficit will be if Obama gets another 4 years, progressives just tune out the MAGNITUDE of that number.

But until they do, we are ALWAYS going to struggle educating people to the danger we are in!
__________________
JDzBrain,

I am prepared to prove at any moment that I am not the man my education has conspired to make of me.

---Franz Kafka
Reply With Quote
  #100 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2012, 07:31 AM
antagon's Avatar
The Man
Member #21840
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,572
Thanks: 559
Thanked 402 Times in 336 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 60
antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha
Quote: Originally Posted by JDzBrain View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JDzBrain View Post
Well then, that kinda puts ya in the camp with neocons/RINOs/liberals/progressives, ant. Cause that's what they believe.
Most people from any philosophical background feel that way because this is a mathematical problem with mathematical indicators. Those indicators don't predict a financial collapse.



This is the math which does not add up: This is not the first time we've crested 100% in our history. Historically, our debt hasn't been 20% of GDP. That 20% statement was the only substantive statement of Ryan's speech, and I heard it loud and clear: annual government spending to equal 20% of GDP... very, very different.

How we understand history and how we hear what is told us will make a difference in what we believe.

Quote:
Our credit rating as a COUNTRY was downgraded by one of the major ratings agencies for the FIRST IN HISTORY last year.

The Federal Reserve has been amortizing our debt. That's for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY and for over a year now. Which is the same thing that happened to England, Germany, Japan...and every major economy in the last 60 years just before it's total collapse. The ONLY reason they recovered...is because WE, the United States bailed them out. Just WHO is going to bail us out...China? Is China who you want to OWN our future?

Republicans and conservatives are optimist, ant. We BELIEVE in American's and their ability to overcome. Our worry is NOT that we won't SURVIVE this fiscal insanity. Our worry is how much PAIN are Americans going to have to endure just to overcome when it CAN be avoided IF we ACT NOW!

Just to put the urgency into perspective, if you spent 1 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY, every day, 365 days a year, it would take you nearly 3,000 YEARS to spend 1 trillion dollars. We are 16 trillion in debt. THAT will only take you 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend at 1 million per day.

Or put another way, every single baby that is born in this country owes with the first breath it draws on this earth, 51,600 dollars. That's a 51 THOUSAND dollar BIRTH TAX! Hell, you, me...EVERYONE owes 51,600 bucks and according to the CBO, if Obama gets another 4 years, that debt will be at LEAST 20 TRILLION dollars and that birth tax will be a nearly 65 thousand dollars.
ok, ok.

What if you understand these matters before a politician brought them to your attention? What happens when you also know it would take 40-some thousand years to spend our annual GDP at a million/year, and that there are all kinds of ways to be hysterical with trillions of dollars? What happens when you know babies aren't born with a lil' share of the debt and that political devices commonly go so far from reality that they just aren't credible?

If I have to look back at my last 4-6 years and feel bad about my life or my country, or blame government in order to support the GOP, I will be a difficult vote to earn.
Actually ant, 64% of ALL Americans...NOT just conservatives, believe that debt and deficit spending is the greatest DANGER this country faces. It beats terrorism by country mile in polling. So the statement that "Most people from any philosophical background feel that way..." is based on a fallacy, cause the 38% remainder is not most.
That employs a lot of hyperbole, JD. Debt and deficit danger versus imminent collapse or your Weimer scenario. Where is the poll showing more than 5% of the country predict a monetary crisis? 2%? I'd bet the Euro would tank well ahead of the dollar, and they are well in the clear.

Moreover, where was the banner of fiscal conservatism flown in that acceptance speech? I thought Ryan set that up well, but was disappointed when Romney hadn't followed through himself.


Quote:
And as to the experts views. DOZENS of top economist in this country are warning that if we don't get our debt and this insane deficit spending under control, we ARE headed toward a Weimar type of collapse. If you don't know history...look it up.

The REASONS for the conditions are different than they were in 1920's Germany, but the conditions them selves are approaching IDENTICAL!

HUGE debt, about 8 billion was about 100% of their GDP, unemployment that rose from 2% 1921 to 23% by the end in '33, production fell and GDP dropped...WHICH led to huge shortfalls in tax revenue and the Weimar Government amortizing it's debt and printing more and more money to cover it. Sound familiar? It should! Ever hear of QE 1 or QE 2. If not...you had BETTER look it up too!

And WE have a REPORTED unemployment rate above 8% for nearly 4 years for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY in this country. And the ACTUAL unemployment rate is closer to 14%. The only reason inflation isn't approaching 12% is because politicians LIE and changed the way it's reported back in the 80's to cover their asses and jobs.

When the debt was called by the the Europeans and Germany couldn't pay up, the result was hyper inflation where the exchange rate in 1920 went form 14 marks per 1 US dollar to 4.2 BILLION per US dollar just 3 years later. It LITERALLY took a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread!
Don't worry, this is not close to happening in the US. Not remotely close. Those dozens of economists either didn't predict your monetary crisis scenario, and you'd heard their warnings with that hyperbolic ear, or those are the least-credible sources for information on the economic state of the union.

Quote:
What happens if the Chinese call our debt? What "concessions" will we have to make to avoid bankruptcy? See, the Germans got Hitler and his socialist workers party government out of it. Just WHAT are you willing to risk in an AVOIDABLE future?
You really have to look into why China has banked into the USD. They're not in any position to call. That would be quite similar to us coming out with a default statement at random. None of the above will happen.

Quote:
As I said, the CAUSES for the conditions the Germans found themselves in were slightly different than ours, but the conditions themselves are FAST approaching the same and there are quite literally dozens of leading economist WARNING JUST THAT!
That fast approach is not evidenced. The Fed is gearing up for more QE on the basis that deflationary pressure (chiefly real estate) is a trailing symptom of the last contraction.

Moreover, this is not a political matter. This is a central bank matter.

Quote:
As to the national debt, you are right. I might more rightly have said, it has reached 103% of our GDP for the first time in our PEACE TIME history and only the SECOND time in modern history. See, it DID go over 100% in the LAST YEAR of WWII and quickly began to fall back down to just about 20% of our GDP after the war ended.
What peace time, JD?

Quote:
That's UNTIL the big government explosion in the late 70's. And I say in modern history, because until the first progressive president, Woodrow Wilson and his Fabien Socialist associates started showing up in our government, our debt to GDP never exceeded 10%!!!

However, the AVERAGE over our history has been just under 20%. That's just a fact and it no coincidence that when we keep our SPENDING under 20%, our debt stays low as well. THAT is just common sense!
The 20% is not supportable by history. I don't think any country pulls that off (or would opt to) It's hard to tie debt escalation to Wilson, too, man. A close look begs the question of whether fiscal conservatives have the back to reduce spending or whether they only fancy reducing the government's revenue.

Quote:
As to my perceptions...uh, I was likely keeping up with this stuff before most of the folks reading this thread were even born. And the HISTORY of our country and our economy was NOT taught to me by sound bites from politicians sprayed out over air waves or the ramblings of blogers on the internet. My perceptions were earned by interest and experience.

And the FACT that it will take 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend 16 trillion dollars, spending 1 million dollars PER DAY...NOT year. You really need to understand the gravity of this to be able to put it into perspective. 1 million a DAY...every day for 44 THOUSAND YEARS to spend 16 trillion dollars.

That is the thing progressives don't seem to understand. The magnitude of the difference between a million, a billion and a trillion. Once a number gets so big that it's just expressed as a point, like 22.5 trillion, the amount the CBO ACTUALLY projects our deficit will be if Obama gets another 4 years, progressives just tune out the MAGNITUDE of that number.

But until they do, we are ALWAYS going to struggle educating people to the danger we are in!
If you see tremendous magnitude in counting trillions, you're not set up for looking at GDP or debt figures in a country like ours. The GDP and DEBT being in the same ball park @ the 103% mark you called out, means that either stat can have fantastic machinations about their value. Unfortunately, there's nothing that can be gleaned from imagining how much spending cash our debt or GDP amounts to on terms of a million a day.

That said, I would like to hear a candidate with a debt reduction plan. I don't need a hysterical rundown or a debt meter to scare me... Just a candidate with a plan.

I think whoever says 'plan' more before November, wins.
Reply With Quote
  #101 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2012, 07:50 AM
Foxfyre's Avatar
Eternal optimist
Member #6847
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Desert Southwest USA
Posts: 36,330
Thanks: 16,012
Thanked 18,115 Times in 10,815 Posts
Mentioned: 162 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 20098
Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati
Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Nah. I caught some of those. YouTube.

That is not the emotion I will be voting on.
The purpose of those testimonials was to show who Mitt Romney is. And who Mitt Romney is is not the heartless, ruthless, conservative evil corporate rich guy as the leftwing media and the Democrats want to portray him. And most of those testimonials were focused on Mitt Romney, the guy who can figure out what the problem is and how best to solve it.
I don't mean to rock your boat at all with my concerns about that convention. I know there are many political fires to put out and patch up, but no patches covered my bigger concerns.

I know that Mitt is a turn-around artist. He can be president.. but that means he's qualified... eligible. The RR ticket just needs to win my vote, rather than hoping that I will blame all the negatives in my life on Obama and default to the GOP.
Perhaps you could share the concerns you have that the GOP didn't address? We currently have a President who has blamed all his inability to address problems on the GOP now for four years. There were some jabs at Obama at the GOP convention but they hope to unseat him after all. But there was remarkably little of that. The huge lion's share of the focus was on possibilities, concepts, values, and process with the end goals clearly outlined.

The Democrats cannot say that their four years have been successful in accomplishing goals. All they have to show for four years is a deeply unpopular healthcare bill and a hugely unpopular mountain of debt coupled with a stagnant economy and unacceptably high unemployment. I don't know how they will turn that sow's ear into a silk purse at their convention.
__________________
ENTER THE COFFEE SHOP HERE
Reply With Quote
  #102 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2012, 07:52 AM
copsnrobbers's Avatar
I call it as I see it
Member #35737
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,020
Thanks: 341
Thanked 382 Times in 305 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 332
copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness copsnrobbers may be on a path to greatness
Vote Romney for Freedom, Prosperity and Sovereignty.

Vote Obama for none of the above.
__________________
2012 2016
Reply With Quote
  #103 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2012, 08:15 AM
Foxfyre's Avatar
Eternal optimist
Member #6847
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Desert Southwest USA
Posts: 36,330
Thanks: 16,012
Thanked 18,115 Times in 10,815 Posts
Mentioned: 162 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 20098
Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati
Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati Foxfyre gives orders to the Illuminati
The number one goal of any President from this point should be getting people back to work. The focus should be on increasing productivity and GDP rather than figuring out how to get the people to pay more in taxes. Ir should be on finding ways to use the people's money much more judiciously and with good stewardship in mind rather than promising the people that the government will do more and more for them. It should be on making America brighter, stronger, more independent, more sovereign, more prosperous, more free, and recognizing American exceptionalism rather than trying to turn us into another European country.

I heard all that at the GOP convention. I'm going to guess that we won't hear much of that at the Democratic convention.
__________________
ENTER THE COFFEE SHOP HERE
Reply With Quote
  #104 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2012, 08:20 AM
antagon's Avatar
The Man
Member #21840
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,572
Thanks: 559
Thanked 402 Times in 336 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 60
antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha antagon could be the Buddha
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre View Post

The purpose of those testimonials was to show who Mitt Romney is. And who Mitt Romney is is not the heartless, ruthless, conservative evil corporate rich guy as the leftwing media and the Democrats want to portray him. And most of those testimonials were focused on Mitt Romney, the guy who can figure out what the problem is and how best to solve it.
I don't mean to rock your boat at all with my concerns about that convention. I know there are many political fires to put out and patch up, but no patches covered my bigger concerns.

I know that Mitt is a turn-around artist. He can be president.. but that means he's qualified... eligible. The RR ticket just needs to win my vote, rather than hoping that I will blame all the negatives in my life on Obama and default to the GOP.
Perhaps you could share the concerns you have that the GOP didn't address? We currently have a President who has blamed all his inability to address problems on the GOP now for four years. There were some jabs at Obama at the GOP convention but they hope to unseat him after all. But there was remarkably little of that. The huge lion's share of the focus was on possibilities, concepts, values, and process with the end goals clearly outlined.

The Democrats cannot say that their four years have been successful in accomplishing goals. All they have to show for four years is a deeply unpopular healthcare bill and a hugely unpopular mountain of debt coupled with a stagnant economy and unacceptably high unemployment. I don't know how they will turn that sow's ear into a silk purse at their convention.
I felt that Christie and Ryan did set Romney up as the soothsayer of hard truths... which I dig. Romney dodged the role in his speech, entirely. It is early, but I want to hear what those hard truths are before I vote for him. Conservative politicians (I mean $cons) have a hard time following through on the tough and unpopular part of conservatism: raising tax and cutting expenditure. There's an extent which both need to be addressed in the next 4yrs. What's Mitts plan... at least the general direction?
Reply With Quote
  #105 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2012, 10:53 AM
Registered User
Member #33830
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Back woods of Kentucky
Posts: 519
Thanks: 483
Thanked 190 Times in 142 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Rep Power: 109
JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman JDzBrain could be a Congressman
Quote: Originally Posted by antagon View Post
That employs a lot of hyperbole, JD. Debt and deficit danger versus imminent collapse or your Weimer scenario. Where is the poll showing more than 5% of the country predict a monetary crisis? 2%? I'd bet the Euro would tank well ahead of the dollar, and they are well in the clear.

Moreover, where was the banner of fiscal conservatism flown in that acceptance speech? I thought Ryan set that up well, but was disappointed when Romney hadn't followed through himself.


Don't worry, this is not close to happening in the US. Not remotely close. Those dozens of economists either didn't predict your monetary crisis scenario, and you'd heard their warnings with that hyperbolic ear, or those are the least-credible sources for information on the economic state of the union.

You really have to look into why China has banked into the USD. They're not in any position to call. That would be quite similar to us coming out with a default statement at random. None of the above will happen.


That fast approach is not evidenced. The Fed is gearing up for more QE on the basis that deflationary pressure (chiefly real estate) is a trailing symptom of the last contraction.

Moreover, this is not a political matter. This is a central bank matter.



What peace time, JD?


The 20% is not supportable by history. I don't think any country pulls that off (or would opt to) It's hard to tie debt escalation to Wilson, too, man. A close look begs the question of whether fiscal conservatives have the back to reduce spending or whether they only fancy reducing the government's revenue.

If you see tremendous magnitude in counting trillions, you're not set up for looking at GDP or debt figures in a country like ours. The GDP and DEBT being in the same ball park @ the 103% mark you called out, means that either stat can have fantastic machinations about their value. Unfortunately, there's nothing that can be gleaned from imagining how much spending cash our debt or GDP amounts to on terms of a million a day.

That said, I would like to hear a candidate with a debt reduction plan. I don't need a hysterical rundown or a debt meter to scare me... Just a candidate with a plan.

I think whoever says 'plan' more before November, wins.
Simple enough!



Like it or not, the average IS just about 20%!

EVERY recent poll shows that 51% of ALL Americans believe we ARE headed to a finical collapse. According to a recent CNN poll, 49% believe we ARE headed to a second Great Depression within the next year. In a 2010 Fox News Poll of likely voters, which COMPLETELY negates your claim of election year hysteria, 78%, which includes 72% of democrats and 80% of independents believe that the total collapse or our economy IS possible and supports what I have stated...UNIVERSALLY.

In FACT, the head of Obama's own Debt Commission, Allen Simpson, says the EXACT SAME THING based on the CBO's reports to that commission. But I guess the folks at the CBO, the experts on that commission and DOZENS of others who are easily googled up are ALL in your "least-credible sources" category.

ME...I refuse, like the MAJORITY of Americans, to stick my head in the sand and hope it goes away or just let progressive DESTROY this country and our kid's future!
__________________
JDzBrain,

I am prepared to prove at any moment that I am not the man my education has conspired to make of me.

---Franz Kafka
Reply With Quote
Reply


Lower Navigation
Go Back   US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum > US Discussion > Clean Debate Zone
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:16 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.