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**PoliticalChic** · #57 (**permalink**) 07-10-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by midcan5

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalChic

Would you mind pointing out two or three of the items in the post which you find to be untrue?

Lie 1 - Wells as 'Godfather,' only in Siegal's narrow mind. Notice he selected no liberal thinker: Rawls, Berlin, Waldron, Williams, Keynes, et al.
lie 2 - "Modern American liberalism, as it emerged in the 1920s, was animated by a revolt against the masses." Did he miss FDR and his help for the masses?
Lie 3 - the fact some people who he classified as being liberal saw Wells as a visionary is irrelevant and not provable. It is not exactly a lie but the entire piece is BS.

The author wanted to criticize liberalism, he chose Wells because Wells fit his preconceived idiocy. It makes no sense to any educated reader.

Your post #48 would win a award for "tired cliches with no relation to reality" believed because - damn, I have no idea why anyone would believe this stuff. I know they are conservative talking points (see my post below) that only make sense if you operate inside the conservative echo chamber. The cliches are old and useless as well as wrong.

Conservatism as I noted above is basically, maybe wholly, reactionary. There are no specific accomplishment one can point to as conservative. There are lots of slowdowns but nothing consensus positive. You can see this from Burke onward, he didn't like the French Revolution but if one can show me what he accomplished, do so. A short list of reactionary conservative opposition to progress is listed here: A Short History of Conservative Obstruction to Progress | Conceptual Guerilla And I have asked this question several times on-line and have yet to get a good answer. See my: What is a conservative? – Political Pass

Do this easy thought experiment. Place yourself in a cave with a conservative and a liberal. One will argue that change is not possible, that leaving the cave will be dangerous, that raising crops is not possible and will ruin hunting; the other will say let's try it, I think it can work, this cave is dark and dingy, I like the sun, and we can do better. One can then extrapolate to any historic time and use our two people. Slavery - suffrage - equal rights - welfare - better working conditions - labor laws - minimum wage - social security, you name them and you know who will move forward and who will stand still. Albert Hirschman who I url-ed above calls this reactionary tactic by three thesis tags: Perversity, futility, and jeopardy. Or 'it will make things worse, it won't work, or it will ruin existing structure. That is conservatism in nutshell today and maybe always. And the only area in which I see conservative allow change is in corporate power, at that altar conservatives worship - to the detriment of America's working class and often to the detriment of the world.

But I am conservative too, but not in the conservative think tank slogan form. I love - actually as a liberal 'love' is a bit much but I'll go with it - this country, I buy American, I support American working people, I will probably never shop in walmart, I want English only, I think public education should be free and diverse, but as a liberal I think we can do better than the cave.

Amazon.com: Freedom's Power: The History and Promise of Liberalism: Paul Starr: Books

Liberalism in Arms

Forgive me for not responding to this one point by point, but it's been a long day- just took the kids to Central Park Victorian Gardens. Highly recommend.

But as a general response, have you seen the recent polls, which include
"Fifty-four percent (54%) of U.S. voters say the average Democrat in Congress is more liberal than they are..."
and
"Interestingly, despite big gains in last November’s election which further strengthened Democratic control over both houses of Congress, voters are more likely to say congressional Republicans have about the same views they do than Democrats – by a 33% to 26% margin."
and
"...Eighty-seven percent (87%) of Republicans and 59% of voters not affiliated with either party say the average Democrat in Congress is more liberal than they are. "
Rasmussen Reports™: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere
and
"For the second straight month, voters are more likely to trust Republicans than Democrats on the economy."
Rasmussen Reports™: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere
and
"Despite the results of the 2008 presidential election, Americans, by a 2-to-1 margin, say their political views in recent years have become more conservative rather than more liberal, 39% to 18%,...more members of all three major partisan groups indicate that their views have shifted to the right rather than to the left...These findings, from a June 14-17 Gallup Poll, somewhat conform to Gallup’s annual trends on Americans’ self-defined political ideology. Thus far in 2009 (from January through May), 40% of Americans call themselves conservative, up from 37% in 2007 and 2008, and the highest level since 2004"
Hot Air » Blog Archive » Rasmussen: Obama still slipping

So, when I read "conservative talking points... that only make sense if you operate inside the conservative echo chamber. The cliches are old and useless as well as wrong," I think I see a bit of perspiration on your upper lip, and hear you whistling past the graveyard.

When I look at those polls, and recall that McCain, as weak a candidate as he was, was actually ahead prior to the financial meltdown, I, and the rest of the " conservative echo chamber" may be engaging in some awesome acapella.